Farang deaths go on !!

[Sandy Cruden]

Breaking news in The Nation

New Zealander stabbed to death



A New Zealand man was stabbed to death at own Bangkok apartment late
Saturday night, police said.

Pol Captain Thanaphat Sookmee of Bang Khen police station said Leonard
Timothy Healey, 32, who taught English at two schools in Bang Khen
district, was attacked in front of his room on the tenth floor of PA
Tower Apartment in the district at about midnight.

Thanaphat said Healy was attacked allegedly by Winai Saisudjai, 29, a
friend of Healey's girlfriend, Jitladda Dejyosdee, 19.

The three have been drinking together inside Healey's room waiting to
see the Brazil-France World Cup match.

Jitladda told police that Healey became angry that Winai asked to sleep
with her so Healey told Winai to leave the room.

Winai, who appeared drunk, grabbed Jitladda and dragged her outside the
room, she said.

Healey came into help her and the two men fought and Winai stabbed him
several times.

Jitladda said Winai fled the scene and she carried Healey into his room
to make a phone call for help from security offices of the building to
help him to the hospital but he succumbed to the wounds.

The Nation

[rinpoche]

Well, if you keep count of Thais who die in such disputes, then the
Farang numbers aren't high at all. In the land of smashing first
impressions, no one looks like a killer until he/she actually kills.
And these suddenly violent people are ordinary, law-abiding Thais who
just had something missing in their upbringing.

Post by Sandy Cruden
Breaking news in The Nation
New Zealander stabbed to death
A New Zealand man was stabbed to death at own Bangkok apartment late
Saturday night, police said.
Pol Captain Thanaphat Sookmee of Bang Khen police station said Leonard
Timothy Healey, 32, who taught English at two schools in Bang Khen
district, was attacked in front of his room on the tenth floor of PA
Tower Apartment in the district at about midnight.
Thanaphat said Healy was attacked allegedly by Winai Saisudjai, 29, a
friend of Healey's girlfriend, Jitladda Dejyosdee, 19.
The three have been drinking together inside Healey's room waiting to
see the Brazil-France World Cup match.
Jitladda told police that Healey became angry that Winai asked to sleep
with her so Healey told Winai to leave the room.
Winai, who appeared drunk, grabbed Jitladda and dragged her outside the
room, she said.
Healey came into help her and the two men fought and Winai stabbed him
several times.
Jitladda said Winai fled the scene and she carried Healey into his room
to make a phone call for help from security offices of the building to
help him to the hospital but he succumbed to the wounds.
The Nation

[orang37]

Post by rinpoche
Well, if you keep count of Thais who die in such disputes, then the
Farang numbers aren't high at all. In the land of smashing first
impressions, no one looks like a killer until he/she actually kills.
And these suddenly violent people are ordinary, law-abiding Thais who
just had something missing in their upbringing.

... original message from Khun S. snipped ...

Khun Rinpoche, Khrup,

What's of interest to me is :

1. is Thailand a violent society compared to other societies within Asia and
compared to other "western" societies. my understanding is the homicide rate
here is high, up there with "western" nations. I personally believe Thailand
is quite a violent country, but farangs I know who lived in the Phillipines
tell me : 'you ain't seen nothing.'

2. is there a particularly high rate of violence towards expats living in
Thailand : how do we "factor out" or "factor in" the very high-levels of
reported violence in some areas, like Pattaya. And is there something about
Thailand that attracts farangs to live here that is selecting for them
becoming eventual victims of violence (such as self-destructive behavior,
risk-taking with prostitutes, etc., getting drunk in high-crime areas).

3. is Thailand a "repressed" society socially and culturally which would be
a hypothesis you could advance to explain things like the sudden psychotic
homicidal violence of a sexual-jealousy nature seen in Thailand. I have
mixed thoughts and feelings about this and I have, I think, like many
long-time expats here, seen many contradictory phenomenon. When I say
"contradictory" I mean, of course, confusing to my western perceptual
apparatus and its assumptions.

I know if a Japanese person were visiting San Francisco and asked me "how
can I be sure and get robbed and possibly beaten ?" : I would suggest
staying at the Hilton Hotel, having several drinks, wearing a Rolex, and
then going for a walk late at night alone through the "tenderloin" area of
SF that is very near the hotel up toward Polk Street mabye by way of
O'Farrell.

Also of interest to me is whether auto and motorcycle accidents (as so
graphically documented in certain very popular monthly Thai magazines) is
reflective of indirectly violent behavior (whether through inebriation,
inattention, negligence, or 'don't give a damn').

In any case I pray your life, and the lives of everyone, are free of
violence.

~o:37;

[Tchiowa]

Post by orang37

Post by rinpoche
Well, if you keep count of Thais who die in such disputes, then the
Farang numbers aren't high at all. In the land of smashing first
impressions, no one looks like a killer until he/she actually kills.
And these suddenly violent people are ordinary, law-abiding Thais who
just had something missing in their upbringing.

... original message from Khun S. snipped ...
Khun Rinpoche, Khrup,

Remember when you ask Rinpoche about violence in Thailand that:

1) He used to finance his trips to Thailand by smuggling (reported it
many times on SCT) so his view of Thailand comes from that point of
view.

2) He is a Singaporean Chinese who has openly stated how superior he
thinks Chinese civilization is. He has made openly racist remarks about
Thai, Jews, Malays and other.

Post by orang37
1. is Thailand a violent society compared to other societies within Asia and
compared to other "western" societies. my understanding is the homicide rate
here is high, up there with "western" nations. I personally believe Thailand
is quite a violent country, but farangs I know who lived in the Phillipines
tell me : 'you ain't seen nothing.'

Thailand is no where near as violent as many other Asian countries.
Philippines is a good example.

Post by orang37
2. is there a particularly high rate of violence towards expats living in
Thailand : how do we "factor out" or "factor in" the very high-levels of
reported violence in some areas, like Pattaya. And is there something about
Thailand that attracts farangs to live here that is selecting for them
becoming eventual victims of violence (such as self-destructive behavior,
risk-taking with prostitutes, etc., getting drunk in high-crime areas).

Alcohol is involved in almost all these cases. I was in this case, too.

[Chabon 19]

snipped

Post by Tchiowa

Post by orang37
1. is Thailand a violent society compared to other societies within Asia and
compared to other "western" societies. my understanding is the homicide rate
here is high, up there with "western" nations. I personally believe Thailand
is quite a violent country, but farangs I know who lived in the Phillipines
tell me : 'you ain't seen nothing.'

Thailand is no where near as violent as many other Asian countries.
Philippines is a good example.

Very correct, also Indonesia comes to mind

Post by Tchiowa

Post by orang37
2. is there a particularly high rate of violence towards expats living in
Thailand : how do we "factor out" or "factor in" the very high-levels of
reported violence in some areas, like Pattaya. And is there something about
Thailand that attracts farangs to live here that is selecting for them
becoming eventual victims of violence (such as self-destructive behavior,
risk-taking with prostitutes, etc., getting drunk in high-crime areas).

Alcohol is involved in almost all these cases. I was in this case, too.

Very correct, or Yaa baah!

Chabby

[l***@lycos.com]

Post by Tchiowa
Alcohol is involved in almost all these cases. I was in this case, too.

******Hmmmmmmmm I might have known you would have had something to do
with it Titchy........
Too much time on your hands perhaps?????

;-)

[Vagabond]

Post by Sandy Cruden
Jitladda told police that Healey became angry that Winai asked to sleep
with her so Healey told Winai to leave the room.

Let me guess. The farang had a Thai girlfriend. The Thai girlfriend had
a Thai boyfriend who reluctantly accepted that she was involved with
the farang because the farang had money. The Thai boyfriend came along
to the apartment because he was secretly jealous and he was presented
to the farang as "a friend" (or maybe as the classic "brother" - the
article may not be accurate on this).

When drinking the Thai boyfriend could not handle the situation any
longer and he and the farang fought. The Thai guy had a knife. The
farang had no knife. The farang died.

I don't know if this is the true story but reading between the lines it
is possible, and it would be typical of how some Thai girls keep their
farang boyfriends in the dark about what is really going on. Suddenly
these "brothers" can become dangerous.

My sympathies to the victim's family in New Zealand.

Vagabond

[Sandy Cruden]

Vagabond wrote:
, and it would be typical of how some Thai girls keep their

Post by Vagabond
farang boyfriends in the dark about what is really going on. Suddenly
these "brothers" can become dangerous.
My sympathies to the victim's family in New Zealand.
Vagabond

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
I echo your sympathies VB.

It's not only farang boyfriends who are kept in the dark VB. It's
common talk upcountry that many farangs are married to Thai women who
already have Thai husbands, if they meet in the village these guys are
introduced to the farangs as brothers or cousins, the farang's Thai
language skills not good enough to ask the probing questions which
might reveal the truth. The Thai husband is a willing participant in
the scam as long as the money flows.

Sandy
Huay Khwang

[Deckard]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 06:58:24 GMT, "orang37"

Post by orang37
snip<
In any case I pray your life, and the lives of everyone, are free of
violence.

Sorry 037, but it's a wishfull thinking!
Violence is an integral part of human psyche.

We can only hope that politics and the monotheistic religion that
praise violence as a mean to reach their goal will be eradicate like
Nazism in the 20th century.
And I'm afraid it's not for tomorrow.

:-(
Mort

[rinpoche]

Post by orang37
1. is Thailand a violent society compared to other societies within Asia and
compared to other "western" societies. my understanding is the homicide rate
here is high, up there with "western" nations. I personally believe Thailand
is quite a violent country, but farangs I know who lived in the Phillipines
tell me : 'you ain't seen nothing.'

First of all, I wouldn't rate Thailand as a violent place. What I find
unique about Thailand is the unexpected nature of the violence. I know
quite a few violent people in Singapore, but they always have that
grouchy look that warns people to stay away. In Thailand, people can be
gentle and charming one moment, then mercilessly violent all of a
sudden.

Next, I don't think it's fair to compare Thailand with another country
with an ongoing civil war or a very powerful insurgency.

Post by orang37
2. is there a particularly high rate of violence towards expats living in
Thailand : how do we "factor out" or "factor in" the very high-levels of
reported violence in some areas, like Pattaya. And is there something about
Thailand that attracts farangs to live here that is selecting for them
becoming eventual victims of violence (such as self-destructive behavior,
risk-taking with prostitutes, etc., getting drunk in high-crime areas).

No, I don't think Pattaya is unsafe even for sex tourists - as long as
they behave like tourists. The moment they get involved in messy
domestic affairs, they run a risk of getting themselves killed.

Post by orang37
3. is Thailand a "repressed" society socially and culturally which would be
a hypothesis you could advance to explain things like the sudden psychotic
homicidal violence of a sexual-jealousy nature seen in Thailand. I have
mixed thoughts and feelings about this and I have, I think, like many
long-time expats here, seen many contradictory phenomenon. When I say
"contradictory" I mean, of course, confusing to my western perceptual
apparatus and its assumptions.

I agree. But there is more to it. I find that Thais pay so much
attention to looking and sounding good that they simply don't want to
deal with or discuss any conflicts or disputes. Instead of finding out
where the problem lies and solving it, traditional Thais have the habit
of running away from a situation. Maybe like Vagabond said, "justice"
is never in their favour. Whatever the reason, I find that
conversational topics even with grown and educated Thais often border
on the frivolous. Perhaps that's one way to avoid conflicts which they
have not been taught to handle.

Post by orang37
I know if a Japanese person were visiting San Francisco and asked me "how
can I be sure and get robbed and possibly beaten ?" : I would suggest
staying at the Hilton Hotel, having several drinks, wearing a Rolex, and
then going for a walk late at night alone through the "tenderloin" area of
SF that is very near the hotel up toward Polk Street mabye by way of
O'Farrell.
Also of interest to me is whether auto and motorcycle accidents (as so
graphically documented in certain very popular monthly Thai magazines) is
reflective of indirectly violent behavior (whether through inebriation,
inattention, negligence, or 'don't give a damn').

I think it's this culture of showing only what is nice and hiding the
unpleasant that makes so many Thais so lax on safety measures. Risks
are often brushed aside because they are unpleasant.

Post by orang37
In any case I pray your life, and the lives of everyone, are free of
violence.

Much more pragmatic would be my advice: superficially is best.

Post by orang37
~o:37;

[-Phil Clemence]

Post by rinpoche

Post by orang37
1. is Thailand a violent society compared to other societies within Asia and
compared to other "western" societies. my understanding is the homicide rate
here is high, up there with "western" nations. I personally believe Thailand
is quite a violent country, but farangs I know who lived in the Phillipines
tell me : 'you ain't seen nothing.'

First of all, I wouldn't rate Thailand as a violent place. What I find
unique about Thailand is the unexpected nature of the violence. I know
quite a few violent people in Singapore, but they always have that
grouchy look that warns people to stay away. In Thailand, people can be
gentle and charming one moment, then mercilessly violent all of a
sudden.
Next, I don't think it's fair to compare Thailand with another country
with an ongoing civil war or a very powerful insurgency.

Post by orang37
2. is there a particularly high rate of violence towards expats living in
Thailand : how do we "factor out" or "factor in" the very high-levels of
reported violence in some areas, like Pattaya. And is there something about
Thailand that attracts farangs to live here that is selecting for them
becoming eventual victims of violence (such as self-destructive behavior,
risk-taking with prostitutes, etc., getting drunk in high-crime areas).

No, I don't think Pattaya is unsafe even for sex tourists - as long as
they behave like tourists. The moment they get involved in messy
domestic affairs, they run a risk of getting themselves killed.

Post by orang37
3. is Thailand a "repressed" society socially and culturally which would be
a hypothesis you could advance to explain things like the sudden psychotic
homicidal violence of a sexual-jealousy nature seen in Thailand. I have
mixed thoughts and feelings about this and I have, I think, like many
long-time expats here, seen many contradictory phenomenon. When I say
"contradictory" I mean, of course, confusing to my western perceptual
apparatus and its assumptions.

I agree. But there is more to it. I find that Thais pay so much
attention to looking and sounding good that they simply don't want to
deal with or discuss any conflicts or disputes. Instead of finding out
where the problem lies and solving it, traditional Thais have the habit
of running away from a situation. Maybe like Vagabond said, "justice"
is never in their favour. Whatever the reason, I find that
conversational topics even with grown and educated Thais often border
on the frivolous. Perhaps that's one way to avoid conflicts which they
have not been taught to handle.

Post by orang37
I know if a Japanese person were visiting San Francisco and asked me "how
can I be sure and get robbed and possibly beaten ?" : I would suggest
staying at the Hilton Hotel, having several drinks, wearing a Rolex, and
then going for a walk late at night alone through the "tenderloin" area of
SF that is very near the hotel up toward Polk Street mabye by way of
O'Farrell.
Also of interest to me is whether auto and motorcycle accidents (as so
graphically documented in certain very popular monthly Thai magazines) is
reflective of indirectly violent behavior (whether through inebriation,
inattention, negligence, or 'don't give a damn').

I think it's this culture of showing only what is nice and hiding the
unpleasant that makes so many Thais so lax on safety measures. Risks
are often brushed aside because they are unpleasant.

When we are in situations we can't control we try to find ways to accept
them.
Sometimes we don't realize they can be changed.
Sometimes we know they can be changed but it is hard.

In some places and times it is and was only sensible to accept everything.
Personal economic or social position is sometimes fixed, and not just by the
current society, but by religious and /or philosophical beliefs handed down.
If you were a Roman slave like so many generations before you, you either
accepted it or lost your already short life.

"God, grant me serenity to accept the things I cannot change"
Hard
"... courage to change the things I can..."
harder
"... and the wisdom to know the difference."
hardest


I watched "Hamburger Hill" last night for the first time and there was a
good example of trying to accept a situation that couldn't be changed.

[ It seemed to show something, but when i tried to relate it I didn't see
the point - I put the DVD in and watched it again and figured it out - best
to transcribe]

A medic, "Doc", gets into a confrontation with the platoon leader "Sgt.
Frantz" after an attempt to take the hill in which one of Doc's friends is
killed shortly before he was to be sent home:
Everyone is sitting and resting after the assault, Sgt. Frantz staring
blankly at the ground, then up to lock eyes with Doc, who has been staring
at him.
One soldier "Alphabet" asks Sgt. Frantz: "We did good today, ddn't we?"
(no response from Sgt. Frantz, now staring at Doc )
Alphabet: (again to Frantz) "We got our cherries busted today , didn't we,
sarge?"
Sgt Frantz (again staring at the ground, lifts his head and answers in tired
monotone) "One of my people got killed ... that's all that happened today."
Doc: (slow and measured, still staring at Sgt.Frantz) "You knew that man
wasn't gonna slack off because he was SHORT. You knew that brother was
gonna DO HIS JOB."
Sgt Frantz: (suddenly intense slams butt of rifle on ground) "Then WHY
didn't you PUT him on profile!" (profile= exempt from duty)
Doc: (rises and takes a step forward) BECAUSE .. he is one HEALTHY
individual. I got people in this fuckin' platoon so sick they wouldn't be
allowed in a HOSPITAL but out here they gotta RUCK-UP MOVE -OUT and PRESS
ON.." (moves to attack Sgt. Frantz and soldier "Motown" grabs him from
behind and turns him around)
Motown: Doc ! (grabs Doc's lapels and shakes him) "It don't MEAN nothin',
man! It don't mean NOTHIN' ! " (then softer, but intense, pleading) C'mon
man, you owe it to yourSELF. .. your SELF.
Doc just stares, unresponsive. Motown looks down to Doc's hand and brings
his own down and begins a ritual hand slap and fist tapping and Doc responds
slowly and automatically.
Motown (picks up the pace) : " It don't mean nothin'..not a thing, man. It
don't mean nothin' - not a thing - not a thing. .."
Doc begins to mouth the words and starts to focus again "It don't mean
nothin' - not a thing ...... it don't mean nothin' - not a thing ... it
don't mean nothin' not a thing"
Another soldier joins the two and they repeat it over and over, with more
life and smiles begin to light their faces ... very serene.

I think it is a good example because it shows how we sometimes try to
convince ourselves that there is no meaning in something we can't change.
If there is no meaning it is easier to accept.
Now I wonder what Buddhist monks chant, having to tend to the dead and
dying.

I saw a documentary that brought up the "sour grapes" story and that is one
way we diminish the meaning of something we can't change.
We diminish the "good" of something we want but can't have (and the
opposite: we diminish the "bad" of what we have but don't want)
I suppose mai bpen rai can mean acceptance at different levels - generally
or whatever is needed at the time..
'nothing you can do' and 'it can't be helped' i suppose, but what about "It
doesn't MEAN anything?"

I realized almost 2 1/2 of years ago that my way of accepting what I thought
i could not change was not serenity but apathy.
I went through a lot of turmoil, but came to a conclusion that I could
change my attitude a little.
Immediately a Thai woman appeared to me and said " everything on the world
have meaning- actions Human have meaning and Human give to meaning about it
..."
Well, i knew that, but it had more meaning when she said it ...
To what do we attach meaning ... and why ?
;o)
-Phil Clemence

Post by rinpoche

Post by orang37
In any case I pray your life, and the lives of everyone, are free of
violence.

Much more pragmatic would be my advice: superficially is best.

Post by orang37
~o:37;

[Deckard]

Post by rinpoche
Well, if you keep count of Thais who die in such disputes, then the
Farang numbers aren't high at all. In the land of smashing first
impressions, no one looks like a killer until he/she actually kills.
And these suddenly violent people are ordinary, law-abiding Thais who
just had something missing in their upbringing.

I tend to think it's another culture shock.
Farangs are not used to believe that their 'friendly' guest carries a
knife.

Regards,
Mort

[Sandy Cruden]

Post by Sandy Cruden
Breaking news in The Nation
New Zealander stabbed to death

Jitladda said Winai fled the scene and she carried Healey into his room

Post by Sandy Cruden
to make a phone call for help from security offices of the building to
help him to the hospital but he succumbed to the wounds.
The Nation

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

TV news just showed Winai who was arrested today, in police custody.

Another earlier report says a Belgian man has jumped off the roof of
his apartment building in Pattaya.

Sandy
Huay Khwaang

[pluto]

Post by Sandy Cruden

Post by Sandy Cruden
Breaking news in The Nation
New Zealander stabbed to death

Jitladda said Winai fled the scene and she carried Healey into his room

Post by Sandy Cruden
to make a phone call for help from security offices of the building to
help him to the hospital but he succumbed to the wounds.
The Nation

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
TV news just showed Winai who was arrested today, in police custody.
Another earlier report says a Belgian man has jumped off the roof of
his apartment building in Pattaya.

k sandy,
methink something bodes ill in pattaya where farang partake to bungee without or too
long a restrainer. Would barricading the corridors and windows help?

Post by Sandy Cruden
Sandy
Huay Khwaang

=end,and/or end quote;when replying please quote the orignating author NOT ME PLEASE;-)=
-pluto

[Sandy Cruden]

Post by pluto
k sandy,
methink something bodes ill in pattaya where farang partake to bungee without or too
long a restrainer. Would barricading the corridors and windows help?

Post by Sandy Cruden
Sandy
Huay Khwaang

=end,and/or end quote;when replying please quote the orignating author NOT ME PLEASE;-)=
-pluto

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
I see None has now posted a detailed report. I think a lot of guys at
the end of their tether, running away from their problems arrive in
Pattaya and think they have found a kind of sexual Shangri La but
problems have a habit of tagging along. Pattaya City News has a report
of a Dutch guy who decided to end it all in his room a day or so ago.

Sandy
Huay Khwaang

[Clay Irving]

Post by Sandy Cruden
Another earlier report says a Belgian man has jumped off the roof of
his apartment building in Pattaya.

Three unhappy farangs in the last few days in Pattaya...

05 Jul 2006 - Belgium national jumps to his death from Center Condo

Norwegian national jumps from the Pattaya International
Hospital and later dies.

03 Jul 2006 - Dutch man kills himself in his Jomtien Apartment.


http://www.pattayacitynews.net/news_update.html